Curse

gremlin · Jan 23, 2011, 05:27 PM // 17:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Erm... what?
Are you saying that the only way to gain challenge in PvE currently is to purposefully gimp yourself?

In a word yes

If you find the game easy because you are especially talented or experienced then you either move to another game or handicap yourself.

Its the way most sports work so why not computer games.

They created hard mode then messed it up by adding consumables maybe they should make the point by adding really hard mode no changes needed except cons don't work.

If they make the game especially hard many will be unable to play it at all, though I only remember one post where someone asked for an easy mode.

Xenomortis · Jan 23, 2011, 05:39 PM // 17:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

Its the way most sports work so why not computer games.

No it isn't.
And comparing something competitive to something non-competitive is laughable.

Missing HB · Jan 23, 2011, 06:35 PM // 18:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by gremlin

If they make the game especially hard many will be unable to play it at all, though I only remember one post where someone asked for an easy mode.

The problem is that people can't know the definition of hard when they just play 3 discorders + roj in vanquish and shadow form sin in UW. I think maybe players should try to UW HM with heroes or even WiK quests with fun builds , that's not really that easy...

But , apart of those elite areas , i agree with OP's that areas to vanquish ( except from EOTN maybe ) are usually a joke, and it's more likely harder to find last mob running around map( i.e hydras in desert) than killing all...

I think they should have found a nice balanced though , because imo it's either too easy , either too hard ( i.e vloxen excavations HM , with non-meta build)

Lishy · Jan 23, 2011, 10:44 PM // 22:44

Halp! I BEAT FF6 AND THERE IS NOTHING LEFT! THIS GAME SUCKS!!

Translation: Guild Wars is a game with an ending to 3 campaigns, with some extras like HM. Nothing new. Moving on.

ItsJustMe · Jan 23, 2011, 11:29 PM // 23:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

So again, I must gimp myself in a very contrived manner that prevents me from making full use of the game mechanics and hence my abilities as a player.
...

So, your argument is that you should be allowed to use the full game mechanics of the game in order to be challenged?

Not trying to put words in your mouth; just asking.

But, if that is the case, what is the difference from ANet changing the game or you changing the way you play? I mean, ANet could add skeletons of Dhumm to content all over, but in the end, you could just change your playstyle and accomplish the same thing. Yes?

If the goal is challenging content, then what is the real issue?

Personally, if ANet went to the trouble of adding 1000+ skills, and allowing a second profession, allowing for unfathomable combinations, the least we could do as a community is challenge ourselves with thinking outside the box a little.
There are so many different ways to make content challenging, these kind of arguments seem pointless.

-I

gremlin · Jan 24, 2011, 12:47 AM // 00:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

No it isn't.
And comparing something competitive to something non-competitive is laughable.

I am in no way comparing an athlete to a computer game player although people play competitive sports for fun, while computer games are at times played competitively for prize money.

In many activities people will handicap themselves either to give a weaker opponent a chance or to challenge themselves.

You wouldn't do it if you were playing seriously to win but for fun yes handicapping yourself is the way to go, that or go find something more challenging.

gremlin · Jan 24, 2011, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

The problem is that people can't know the definition of hard when they just play 3 discorders + roj in vanquish and shadow form sin in UW. I think maybe players should try to UW HM with heroes or even WiK quests with fun builds , that's not really that easy...

But , apart of those elite areas , i agree with OP's that areas to vanquish ( except from EOTN maybe ) are usually a joke, and it's more likely harder to find last mob running around map( i.e hydras in desert) than killing all...

I think they should have found a nice balanced though , because imo it's either too easy , either too hard ( i.e vloxen excavations HM , with non-meta build)

I do not consider myself a top player nowhere near just pretty experienced.
Most of the time pve is easy given my ability and my character and party builds.

There are areas where I have great difficulty and sometimes need a few attempts and some of the tougher dungeons are right out of my league.
I find this both annoying and pleasing.

LordDragon · Jan 24, 2011, 01:41 AM // 01:41

I despise when long term players say "Make it harder!!" They did this in Diablo II and 75% of the player base LEFT! They turned Hell Mode into one shot kills unless you had very specific builds and equipment that took forever to get.

Maybe Guild Wars is easy for you. Maybe you think you can just 'faceroll' all the time. The truth is you can't. You need to still do the right thing at the right times. You have just gotten used to it that's all.

As so many people have said, if YOU want it harder there are many ways you can do that. Play only with the skills from the particular chapter you are in. Make your own builds etc...

Voodoo Rage · Jan 24, 2011, 01:51 AM // 01:51

I think a lot of you just need to realize the you represent a very elite and small portion of the game population. You guys are pretty good. I don't think that the majority of players should be punished by rolling out exceptionally difficult new content to appeal to the ultra-elite crowd.

Crom The Pale · Jan 24, 2011, 01:54 AM // 01:54

It really doesn't matter how hard a game is there will always be people that find it easy.

I can remember when I first started playing Resident Evil. A while after I finnished I learned that a video existed where a player beat the entire game with only the starting knife, something I concidered impossible under any circumstances.

There will always be players that can 'faceroll' GW. The number of players will be small yet they are very vocal. I would guess that the vast majority of players that are concidered 'casual' have never been to a forum and have no clue that others find the game to easy.

Age · Jan 24, 2011, 01:56 AM // 01:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by LifeInfusion

Want a challenge? Try playing HM without necros or Ritualists, PVE skills, cons , and stuff like Shadowform (PvE splits). Or do PvP.

EDIT: and Prophecies skills are crap for the most part, that's why you think it's so easy.

I don't believe you said that about Prophecies skills which gives you the best axe elite as well as condition removal and a a few other don't forget cripshot.There are several good skills in Prophecies maybe not for Eles but for other there sure are.Then again for Pve meteor showers is all you need along with Ele. attunement and few other fire skills.Your thought and judgment on skills in becoming questionable at most.

Arieon Ito · Jan 24, 2011, 02:01 AM // 02:01

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crom The Pale

It really doesn't matter how hard a game is there will always be people that find it easy.

I can remember when I first started playing Resident Evil. A while after I finnished I learned that a video existed where a player beat the entire game with only the starting knife, something I concidered impossible under any circumstances.

There will always be players that can 'faceroll' GW. The number of players will be small yet they are very vocal. I would guess that the vast majority of players that are concidered 'casual' have never been to a forum and have no clue that others find the game to easy.

This I agree with. After all, if you want to make something you find easy harder just to challenge yourself, go tie one hand behind your back or something. It's easier to limit yourself than to force everyone else to keep up with you. We aren't all GW experts. I've been vanquishing the same area for Kurz faction and when I start thinking it gets too easy with a particular build/hero set, I switch them completely. The challenge is being innovative, not facerolling something you know is tried and tested and you've done a thousand times.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage

I think a lot of you just need to realize the you represent a very elite and small portion of the game population. You guys are pretty good. I don't think that the majority of players should be punished by rolling out exceptionally difficult new content to appeal to the ultra-elite crowd.

+1

Shriketalon · Jan 24, 2011, 03:20 AM // 03:20

It seems like there's plenty of room for both types to coexist, without one side having to jump on one leg blindfolded or the other to get fed up with elitism.

Hard Mode, for example, presents the perfect possibility. Perhaps, as blasphemous as this might sound, Hard Mode should actually be Hard, featuring decent skillbars, multiple enemy builds for each name, and decent party composition instead of the ten-warrior-troll setup commonly seen in several campaigns. That way the easy folks have it easy, and the hardcore have a mode that's actually hardcore.

*lemming* · Jan 24, 2011, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Hypothetically, assume that developer time was not a constraint and new PvE content that genuinely requires skill (defined objectively as requiring map/situational awareness, builds that do not rely on AI abuse, individual micro such as actual preprot/infusing/target selection, all PvE skills banned) was released with the intention of only being for elite PvEers.

Why would people object to not being able to complete content that is not designed to be accessible by them?

Bassma · Jan 24, 2011, 03:28 AM // 03:28

Quote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crom The Pale
It really doesn't matter how hard a game is there will always be people that find it easy.

I can remember when I first started playing Resident Evil. A while after I finnished I learned that a video existed where a player beat the entire game with only the starting knife, something I concidered impossible under any circumstances.

There will always be players that can 'faceroll' GW. The number of players will be small yet they are very vocal. I would guess that the vast majority of players that are concidered 'casual' have never been to a forum and have no clue that others find the game to easy.

This I agree with. After all, if you want to make something you find easy harder just to challenge yourself, go tie one hand behind your back or something. It's easier to limit yourself than to force everyone else to keep up with you. We aren't all GW experts. I've been vanquishing the same area for Kurz faction and when I start thinking it gets too easy with a particular build/hero set, I switch them completely. The challenge is being innovative, not facerolling something you know is tried and tested and you've done a thousand times.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Voodoo Rage
I think a lot of you just need to realize the you represent a very elite and small portion of the game population. You guys are pretty good. I don't think that the majority of players should be punished by rolling out exceptionally difficult new content to appeal to the ultra-elite crowd.

+1

Very nice posts and I agree with. The ultra-elite crowd will just have to go play something else.

Bassma · Jan 24, 2011, 03:29 AM // 03:29

Quote:

Why would people object to not being able to complete content that is not designed to be accessible by them?

Because in reality the majority of people are socialists and want everything that everybody else has got and want access to it.

Arieon Ito · Jan 24, 2011, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by lemming

Hypothetically, assume that developer time was not a constraint and new PvE content that genuinely requires skill (defined objectively as requiring map/situational awareness, builds that do not rely on AI abuse, individual micro such as actual preprot/infusing/target selection, all PvE skills banned) was released with the intention of only being for elite PvEers.

Why would people object to not being able to complete content that is not designed to be accessible by them?

Definitely a perfect world thought in both your statements. The first bit can already by done by anyone personally seeking the challenge by limiting themselves (through non-use of PvE skills, codex-styled builds etc).

I wouldn't disagree with having something quite new and unique for 'elite PvEers' such as a mission-styled area where Codex rules are implemented for builds and only henchmen (pretty much like every storybook mission we've had) as long as there are no unique items to be obtained. (Titles and bragging rights are ok, after all, I don't complain about not having PvP titles and such)

And of course people will object to not being able to get into content. We've all paid the same cost to play GW (excluding how cheap its gotten since initial release) so not being able to access (not saying completing it) said content would be like buying a great kitchen setup and not being able to use the oven only because you don't know how to bake yet...

Voodoo Rage · Jan 24, 2011, 04:32 AM // 04:32

Although I do think there is a tendency that "harder" just means more gimmicky team builds required to beat it.

Ghull Ka · Jan 24, 2011, 05:32 AM // 05:32

So, "gimp yourself if you think it's easy" is pretty much the favorite answer here?

Quote:

* try VQ-ing elite areas with just 3 heros and no wiki builds.

* go to your build templates list and delete ALL of them

* go back to how it was originally: core and proph-only skills, no heroes.

* just don't take your uber build try something new leave out the consumables maybe even run a smaller party.

* get rid of the heros and just add any with random builds and no elite and probably run around with no armor on as well.

* If you want a challenge, just leave the heroes at home and go do stuff with only the henchmen.

* Play without a new UI. No damage monitor, just target monitor (there was none of that back in the day), no spears daggers or scythes. No PvE Skills or skills with PvE splits. Prophecies only skills.

* if you really want challenge go back and play all the chapters and EOTN with HENCHIES only and NO HEROES

I feel for the OP, he's wishing that the power creep that we have wasn't there, and sometimes I do too. When Prophecies was the only campaign, things seemed harder. I remember the Jade Scarabs outside of Amnoon Oasis could actually wipe your party when you head out of town unprepared. Thunderhead Keep was fast-paced and required top level playing.

Now, things like Shards of Orr and Slaver's Exile feel as hard as Thunderhead Keep used to feel, and Thunderhead Keep seems silly easy.

OP: It's power creep, mate. Nothing we can do about it. And I don't think the devs will go on a large re-balancing act for the outdated Prophecies content or release content that will make it harder. They've got Guild Wars: Beyond and Guild Wars 2 to deal with.

Old game is old, bro. Nothin you can do but gimp yourself, or stick to the "harder" stuff like Slaver's Exile hard mode or whatever you consider difficult.

aspi · Jan 24, 2011, 11:49 AM // 11:49

They should make Hard mode really hard mode. With better AI instead all the buffs. What good is their armour and damage output when they just auto attack minions or spirits standing next to you and do nothing to players and heroes. :/
Real HM would be like pvp, same level but a lot more diverse skills and a brain. But then without the pvp dicks.